Proposal for Commercial OpenBOR/Chrono Crash Engine

[kungpow12345]

I went ahead and moved this to a new topic so it's fresh and new, and it's not so crowded from the other thread

Hey Guys,

I figured since some of the modders here have been asking about producing commercial games using OpenBOR (and the question has since been raised again recently), I wanted to present a proposal to you all that would coincide with this discussion.

First, I do have a disclaimer. I am not doing this solely for my own personal financial gain or agenda. I'm doing this as a demonstration to the CC Dev Team that there are still modders who are willing to work on their own original games commercially in FULL cooperation with both Senile Team and the CC Dev Team in the manners that I have laid out in my proposal.

I'm doing this because I wanted to present a plan that would be straightforward and not as tedious as the process that I found to be back when I tried to do this going through the proper channels. I have personally been trying to gain the usage rights to BoR/OpenBOR for 10 years now, so I have done my research of similar programs and scenarios that, when done right, can support the community in a positive way and would allow the modders here to use OpenBOR to its full potential, with a commercial friendly build (be it OpenBOR or Chrono Crash).

After reading my proposal, if there's anyone who is interested in what I'm proposing today, please reply here directly, but please do keep the responses short as I'm doing this to collect a group of names of modders to present to the CC Dev Team.

I'm not asking for any commitments right now of games that need to be made, but I do want to see which modders would be okay with the system I'm presenting and that are serious about this. I do make that portion clear in my proposal as well because I do realize that commitment has been another reason why this discussion has been held back as many times as it has been.

With that all out of the way, here's my proposal:

Disclaimer: These points are my suggestions alone and do not reflect the intentions of the CC Dev Team at this point in time as well as in the past, present or future.

Looking towards the future, I believe OpenBOR (Chrono Crash) can be made available to be used in a commercial capacity and still keep its fan community as entertained and productive as ever. There are also modders who have, in the past, expressed their interests in a commercial version of OpenBOR that can be used to produce their own, original games and released on platforms like Steam, Windows Marketplace and Mobile Stores.

As OpenBOR approaches its 4.0 release as Chrono Crash, I think it’s time again to speak of the commercial possibilities that Chrono Crash can take that will benefit the community, dedicated game modders that have supported OpenBOR for years and Senile Team, the creators of the original ‘Beats of Rage’ engine.

First, some terms: The modder is the sole owner of his content (the resources, the scripts, everything). Because of that, it’s his (or her) responsibility and not the CC Dev team if something ever happens in error with his (or her) content when ran by the engine, unless it’s the engine’s fault. Therefore, it’s the modder’s responsibility to update or fix his mod accordingly.

For Example, In Unreal Engine based games; In the case of the Batman Arkham Series, it is Rocksteady’s responsibility, and not Epic Games’, to fix their game unless it’s an Unreal engine based problem and can be verified as such. It will then be appropriate to reach out to Epic directly to troubleshoot and help out Rocksteady.

Indie Games made using the proposed dev kit is at the modder’s own risk and would be supported by the community more than the CC dev team.

The reasoning for this is that the dev team cannot be accountable with anything that is made by the modder that could be harmful to the engine.

With all of that out of the way, I would suggest these as the three “flavors” of the engine:

1) Free ‘Community’ Version

This is the one seen in the Chronocrash website today. This is free and is greatly supported by the community. The engine itself can be used to play the modules available on the community website, but could also be used to develop free modules that can then be uploaded to the community website, where they will be made available for download after approval by the CC Team Administrator. This version of the engine would have *limited* support from the dev team, but would not have priority for extensive support. Support for this version be given primarily by the community itself.

2) Commercial Version

This version will be commercial friendly and will be dependent on the fact that anything created with this version must be made using 100% original content. A modder will then enter an approval phase with the CC dev team where they would first sign over some form(s) that states his intentions with the engine (for some evidence that he agrees that he’s using it for commercial purposes, selling the game, etc.) He could still use the utilities that are available from the free version (Some examples being Notepad or any other text editor and available graphic, video and sound utilities)

During the approval process, terms of the licensing agreement will be discussed and fees associated with obtaining usage rights for the game's release will be determined. These fees would be paid per game and per platform, where it will then divided between Senile Team and the CC Dev Team. The fees themselves would be significantly lower than the expected revenue of a successful commercial game.

After the approval process is completed, the CC Dev team could then offer the modder extensive priority support. Plus, their content would be encrypted like SecurePAK. Additional documentation, including a full license agreement and usage rights will then be signed and notarized by all parties for legal purposes.

3) Beta Version

This version will be similar to the Free version, except it would be only accessed by people who donate to the CC Dev team. This is like a closed beta in that they can test out the new engine, provided they use their own mods and should not be distributed freely. There would also be an embedded watermark feature in this version to deter these actions from happening.

Since the Commercial Version, with its encryption module, and the Free version fork from the same sources, the source will be closed and will not be available for access by contributors. Only the main programmers (such as DC and Plombo) would have access officially.

All of these versions are NOT open source, so that the source would be controlled. People who want to check out the source and contribute (contributors) should inform DC so that they would be allowed to do so, provided they are registered by SourceForge as well.

Having said this, ANY PORTS are contributed. They are only supported by people who port them unofficially, except for some of the ports, such as the 3DS, Android and Wii ports by Plombo and portions of the Android port maintained by CRxTR.

---

Thank you very much for your time everyone! Looking forward to hearing your replies. Also...if you like this idea and want the CC Dev Team to see that you do, how about giving this a shout out on your Signature with the words: "I <3 Commercial CC - How about you?" and link to this topic!

 

[ABK]

youre thinking about it too muchj , you want to create original game and sell it then create some demo show it to current devs and ask for permission its that simple, all that fee splitting is weird ,senile doesnt host much openbor stuff now , i think youre 10 years behind, i respect their work but their involvment with openbor wasnt big. they created bor and thats great but its weird how you want to split $ without mentioning guys like SumolX or CGRemakes...

Splitting money isnt biggest issue right now - its getting things done, making actual game instead of planning something for many years.
The only thing that could be useful to make money on android platform is a way to  place adverts like in many other android apps, other that that you can use today's version for any other plan and there's secure pak that wont let others to unpack your game.

 

[DCurrent]

...

Pretty much this.

I'm very glad to see you back kungpow and really appreciate your enthusiasm, but so long as I head this team, there are certain caveats that will always be in place.

1. No splitting versions. I've said my piece on this over and over elsewhere in the forum. Not going to do it again.

2. No part of the engine will ever be for sale. Donations are fine, but work is voluntary. At no point will anyone be able to pay to get in front of the line.

3. Cart before the horse. As bwwd said, you are overthinking. If you want to make content and sell it, then do so. The end. You're in for a long and hard road that will likely as not end in failure, but that's just the law of statistics. All the tools you need are right here.

DC

 

[kungpow12345]

...

I do appreciate those kind words DC, but there are some problems going forward with using OpenBOR as a launching platform for a game in its current form. The biggest thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the fact that the engine comes before the game itself. Let me explain with an example:

Let's say Unreal released its engine as a standalone product and then say, Rocksteady has made a Batman game for the engine and you can buy the module to play it, but you have to setup the Unreal engine beforehand, would you want to do that?

For us technically minded people, it wouldn't be that hard. But for most end users, they don't want to fool with crap like that. They'd rather just launch the game and play it and not even see the inner workings of the system. I know some changes have been made in the past that allowed paks to be auto launched if named something exact, but I know for people that have disabilities or something like that will have a harder time in working with a system as it is right now. I only bring that point up the way I did because I would like to create games for special needs people to help with cognitive and speech therapy. Besides, some people might see "OpenBOR" and wonder if they even have the right program, but even worse, they'll think they've installed a virus or something. (Believe me, that will happen with some demographics...)

The other problem that this represents is a way for the game to be released on mobile platforms, specifically Android. I'm glad that the engine is at the point where it is now, but I would like a system where it's easier for us modders to be able to repackage the OpenBOR engine and the pak file (once it's finished) into a new APK file so that you see the branding of the game that was made first, not OpenBOR. Using the Batman example again, the average Joe would have a hard time setting up OpenBOR on their device after installing the APK of the engine, then downloading the pak file and then putting the .PAK file in the appropriate directory before launching the game. ...and again, I'd rather them be able to just find the Batman game first, then have the APK file do the work, and then know that "Hey, this uses the Unreal engine" in a splash screen that's required to be put in there. It just looks more professional that way. Besides, wasn't there a problem with securepaks running on the Android build anyways?

I know I've been at this for a long time and I appreciate you all putting up with me, but there are personal reasons why I have not been as active as I used to be back in 2011, the biggest one being that my wife of 3 years committed suicide back in 2012, so my world was tore apart by that. My drive for working on anything pretty much stopped then. Lately, as my world is slowly coming back into focus. I'm taking my time to relaunch Distant Star Games and go through the proper channels to make it into a retail business for myself (the first step being to get an EIN number and waiting for the perfect time to turn my sole proprietorship into an LLC) With me developing a physical card game engine at the moment and seeing other video game projects that use engines very much like ours getting their products crowdfunded, I am also getting the motivation to work with OpenBOR again to continue what my wife and I started back in 2011 as video game design is my first love. Besides, there's not alot of independent engines like ours either so that's also a plus for us.

In any case, I have always had the community on my mind and much like I did before, I will always be willing to showcase OpenBOR to people and I believe that as more people utilize it for their own original games, we will see the full potential of the engine shine through.

I do apologize for some of my information not being accurate and I was only going off of the examples I found in my research. With the information that I know now, I'm only asking for a few changes that would help us as modders present our games, but also the end user for a better experience overall.

 

[kungpow12345]

...

Then DC is the man to talk to because they have access to the SecurePAK encryption tools. I will tell you that you will need proof that all of your assets are original and royalty-free before they will secure it for you. Plombo can do this as well.

 

[NickyP]

Welcome back to the community, kungpow. It's been a long time.

For us technically minded people, it wouldn't be that hard. But for most end users, they don't want to fool with crap like that. They'd rather just launch the game and play it and not even see the inner workings of the system. I know some changes have been made in the past that allowed paks to be auto launched if named something exact, but I know for people that have disabilities or something like that will have a harder time in working with a system as it is right now.

Could you elaborate a little more on why you believe this to be an issue? Because I'd wager it's no different from launching any other game.

As far as I know, there's only two methods to play a mod. The first is with a Pak--so you would distribute your recommended build of OpenBOR with the Pak file already placed in the Pak folder. All the end user has to do is run OpenBOR and select the Pak. The other method is to have a dummy "bor.pak" in the Paks folder, and distribute OpenBOR with your mod's Data folder. Running OpenBOR would then insta-boot into the mod.

How is that different from any contemporary game, besides ones that are purchased from a dedicated hub like U-Play or EA Origin? If you distributed your commercial mod through the Dreamcast build, let's say, then the end user would put in the disc and play. If it were the PC build, they'd run OpenBOR.exe. Where would the confusion for the end user arise?

If the issue is along the lines of the user having to select the pak if there's only one in the Paks folder, then I can't imagine that's a difficult thing to resolve. It could be taken care of by probably a few lines of code in the next devbuild, if someone decided to implement it.

On another note, I'd like point out that licensing and interface for the engine is only part of the equation. As it stands, there's nothing about OpenBOR that prevents piracy. Sure, there's the SecurePak method... but that only prevents users from paxploding and stealing assets and code. There's nothing in place that would stop a user from uploading said SecurePak and sharing it--likewise, there's nothing stopping another user from downloading it and running on virtually any modern build of OpenBOR.

I imagine the only way to get around that is to create your own personal build of OpenBOR that has anti-piracy measures such as security keys and the like. However, doing that would undoubtedly run afoul of the caveats DC mentioned.

There is one thing I believe needs to be said, however. Your idea to use OpenBOR as a rehabilitative tool for those with special needs is noble and admirable. I genuinely hope that you pull through with it, but I regrettably must admit that OpenBOR is not the best route if you wish to make a profit from that endeavor.

In either event, I wish you luck.

 

[kungpow12345]

...

Hey NickyP, glad to be back buddy!

I guess I wasn't as direct about my issue as I needed to be, but the point I was trying to make is that I'm worried that the branding of the engine as it is now might deter people who don't normally play and install games like us. They might not understand what to do with the engine itself once they have it. I know in the past that I've put the .pak file in the correct folder and made an installer .exe file that way, but what you're launching is the OpenBOR Engine with its branding on it. People might be expecting your game's branding inside so they might get confused. It kinda goes to my "engine before the game" issue. Again, I only bring it up for people who are new to this whole process because I know I had it come up in the past, even when I was doing the Sailor Moon fan games. Once I explained what OpenBOR was and why it's there, I included instructions in my installer file, then it became easier. Others are of the mindset that I just need to tear into this thing to pop in and pop out Kinda like the kid who just wants to rip into their presents on Christmas morning.

My idea for a quick workaround would be to create a simple launcher (like most modern games have) that has the game's branding on it and once it's launched, it'll load OpenBOR like normal behind the scenes. However, if we had more control over the branding of the game engine itself for a commercial release, that'd be even more sweeter as long as we still put the required splash pages up to say "Hey, this is OpenBOR" and still keeping the credits page when you exit the game as-is, just slightly tweaked to cater to your game while still having all of the info there.

As far as the splash screens are considered, when you launch the engine in the first place, you immediately see the Open Beats of Rage splash taking up the whole screen. If you were wanting to do a commercial game, I personally would like to have control to edit that splash so it's a little more "user friendly" and not assaulting your eyeballs when you first launch the game. (Maybe something similar to the original Beats of Rage splash that's been in the Dreamcast build for the longest time.) Plus, you still have a disclaimer splash in the engine if you need it, so you're doing double duty if you don't have anything to put on that very first splash screen in-game. I know we would find uses for it but just showing you "can" put the splash screen in your mod like modern games do and it can be done in a tasteful manner.

All in all though, the suggestions I'm making would be require very little work, the only one being the major hurdle right now would be mobile releases. If we can just get those little things ironed out, it's game on!

I gotta admit, I'm still shocked by what I heard from DC said today. It's like sweet sweet music to my ears to me since I've been at this for so long.

I even had to send a very special message today...and that was to my late wife. I made a quiet promise to her when I received her ashes,  that I would continue on and make our games.  :'( So this is definitely like a last wish from me to her.

You guys are so awesome and if only you can see how truly happy I am right now. I love this community.

 

[DCurrent]

I do agree single click packaging capability is a good concept. As for branding of the engine vs. the module, that's not hard either and can be handled with some subtle changes here and there.

A "powered by OpenBOR" splash screen as opposed to the current setup that effectively makes OpenBOR - X the title of your X module would take care of that issue.

As for Securepak... that was SX's baby, and he let it lapse even before retiring several years ago.

I can guarantee it won't work with latest OpenBOR versions, but there's no reason other than time that Plombo and I couldn't come up with a replacement. We honestly just haven't been that motivated to do so because there are so many other things on our plate, only one module that qualifies (Bad Ass Babes), and most importantly - there is no way to really protect your assets online. They'll just rip them from shots if they can't extract the pack.

I'm not saying we won't revive Securepack for those reasons - but that's just why it has never really been a big priority for us.

DC

 

[kungpow12345]

...

I do understand the risks involved when it involves a commercial game and the security of assets...and alot of us are well aware of the efforts in which the ripping of assets happens (and always does, even when we do our best to make sure it doesn't happen). I honestly feel like if a game is ripped, then it's a sign of flattery. It's what people do with those assets is what makes us better or worse. Some people just do it to do it, I on the other hand admit that I do it as a way for me to study the methods in which our favorite games are made. It comes to a point where it does have to amount to something.

I have always believed that the dev team only has a limited amount of liability as far as the security of the assets even after the SecurePAK was completed, but it's always up to the modder after that to add a little more effort to secure their assets, especially in the ways in which the game itself would be distributed. Luckily for us, as the technical geeks that we are, we know good and well that DRM-encryption is frown upon by alot of the other technical geeks like us ...and we just don't do that.  Our best chance of protection atm would be at the distribution level.

I do realize that the security of assets hasn't been a major priority until recently but now that I have your documented approval to use OpenBOR as a platform to sell a game with, I will be working towards continuing the projects I started back in 2011. Some of the games will survive so that's a plus in the right direction for me. My goal is to have at least one game ready by mid-2016 so you'll have some time for a new encryption method.

I can only hope that as we take these new steps that CC can be used in the same manner as well.

 

[Mr.Q!]

I think I'm the one with most mods made so far? I have been around since day one, and I'm totally against this due to a plethora of reasons, but the most important one is we just don't know what this might bring up in the future to everyone of us, money does that, and since it already works well they way it is, why doing this?

If you want to make money from making an original game, maybe it's better to try another engine or just studying something related it at an institute, or just go to a dev's office and try telling them your ideas, but please, not OpenBoR.

My 2 cents ever on this subject.

 

[aL BeasTie]

There's a bit more involved than just taking supposed public domain/royalty free resources and calling it a day.  Under certain licensing you actually have to cite the license and the author of the resources being used, for every single thing you have used. 

You may find whilst digging for this information that not all assets are allowed to be used commercially either.  Some may truly be public domain and not require documentation, others legally require that this information is given.  Failing to do so would allow the licensor to revoke any usage rights. 

Plus you need to cover your own resources, under certain licensing your original assets could be considered creative commons by including them together.  Some assets fall under Open Source, and your game could be considered open source by using them.  Thus being open source you can't lock the .PAK and stop people from accessing them.


INFO - http://creativecommons.org/


Most licenses are NOT actually public domain, most fall under a different license, which have conditions and/or restrictions. 

examples.
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[kungpow12345]

...

I'm just going to put this out there, but all of my assets are and always will be 100% original going from concept to implementation going forward. No public domain/royalty free resources for me. I made that decision ever since I started flying the "commercial flag." A lot of what I have is sketches that my late wife and I worked on to establish the flow of the game, and I have been taking those and converting these ideas into sprite form where I can. I was even able to create a few sandbox environments so I can take new ideas and make them in the OpenBOR engine. Needless to say, the engine itself can still be highly compatible for my needs.

Sadly, it was with my wife's death that I decided to put everything on hold so I could grieve and recover mentally, emotionally and physically. Other personal issues prevented me from coming back in a timely manner, but it was time well spent as I have been watching the community from afar and I have been noticing the advances that the OpenBOR engine has been making towards the eventual release of Chrono Crash, which I will support immediately after it's release. That's why I've decided to come back to the community now and try this again.   

I have been working with different engines to see if I can make other games from those and I've found that with each engine, they're tailored to a specific game type. The best one I've seen so far is BuildBox, but to even buy all of its assets, including the engines for games, sound creation, animation creation, and icon creation for mobile stores, it was going to cost at least $5,000 for it's "master collection". That's not including the exporter purchases for Android and iOS. You would even have to buy the engine upfront (a $500 dollar value) before there's even hope that you'd be able to use it to develop a game and publish it, and you'd have to relay on either Kickstarter or any other funding before you're able to publish for Android and iOS.

For me personally, OpenBOR is the engine for me because I've spent so much time with it so I know its nuisances and I know how to utilize it for my needs. Sure, I may be able to finally go and have an education in 'proper' video game development, but everyone's gotta have a starting point. This is mine.

 

[Mr.Q!]

I would suggest you to make a decent beta using openbor about whatever your idea is, and then show that to some indie developer and try getting it done with their engines or dev kits. Sorry but this just sounds like castles in the sky, good luck, though.

 

[kungpow12345]

its only castles in the sky when the community doesn't support the project... then its doomed to fail before it begins

I will gladly help playtest and provide feedback and suggestions on improvements (and show ways to do so if i know how) will also help spread the word and promote when its time

That goes double for me. That's what a community should be doing

 

[Bloodbane]

They might not understand what to do with the engine itself once they have it

Hmmm.... I've tried releasing some OpenBoR games on GameJolt and no one has posted any problems running them. The only problem they posted is control which is the default control. I plan to give certain configurations to solve this in future games

A "powered by OpenBOR" splash screen as opposed to the current setup that effectively makes OpenBOR - X the title of your X module would take care of that issue.

Yep, that's why I set an intro scene showing OpenBoR engine (which is copy of screen we usually see when starting OpenBoR)

Nonetheless, I'd like to use OpenBoR for creating and selling games. Though I have to admit, I'm lacking in graphics and music department

Last but not least, sorry to hear about your wife

 

[kungpow12345]

...

Thanks, Bloodbane.

I've been talking with others and they are definitely excited about the possibility of using OpenBOR as a commercial platform, especially seeing alot of the great mods made here. Of course, the commercial question would be "What *else* can OpenBOR do?" For us, scripting would make each game unique when utilized effectively, and yet, there's so many features in OpenBOR that it can definitely make each game their own.

I know that the engine itself is notorious for remakes of other games but as OpenBOR evolves into Chrono Crash, the effect that commercial games would have with it would be huge. It'd be willing to show that the community can evolve with it. There's definitely potential for more, especially an influx of new members who would use the engine for their own games.

As someone once said, "I'm only here to show you the door. You're the one who's going to have to open it."

 

[maxman]

About the Secure Pak encryption, I wish any admin here knew about what SX knows about it. I think the current and only admins, like, DC and Plombo, could have access to encrypting pak files for security purpose but I do know that SX can do it since it's his thing. Since SX is gone (sadly to me), who could help with securing pak files?

kungpow, you're not the only one who wants to sell your games with OpenBOR, (like Bloodbane) I too really wanna sell my own games with it in the future. I'm gonna have to draw some artwork and do sprites from scratch if I want to make my own commercial game. I think if I will go for making commercial games, I might form a team but it will be difficult to find who will help out when it comes to commercial games.

 

[ABK]

I would suggest you to make a decent beta using openbor about whatever your idea is, and then show that to some indie developer and try getting it done with their engines or dev kits. Sorry but this just sounds like castles in the sky, good luck, though.

+1
ITs not about community helping or not, to make it possible you need a plan and skills to create artwork,music and coding.
We all had plans to create and sell games since we were 12 years old kids, but enough talk... just create something , send some pm's to devs when its done and take it from there.
I guess choosing publisher is another step, its hard to sell and advertise your game even if you would have it today fully complete, its still hard to make it profitable, you need to know a bit about today's online marketing and how devs make money on games, most of indie devs have $ from ads in games.
This thread is like when you visit your new girlfriends parents for the first time and they want to talk with you about wedding details, ;D its weird.