The ideal combat system

[Grit]

I been trying to figure out how to go about it with regards to converting Street Fighter into beat em up. I came to the conclusion that the system must cater for stand up, ground attacks and air juggles, throws are always a plus.
I'm removing fireballs and supers from combat, focusing on more devastating combinations that can be chained together by command attacks.
I prefer 2 attack buttons, 1 for punch and 1 for kicks respectively and each attack should flow naturally into the next one.(very important)
While most of the greats have 5 hits in there basics combo, I prefer 4 hits and 4 kicks which allow for a decent amount of button combinations.
SOR4 be limited in this regard but a perfect example of game where the player use all the tools, at least I did.
Games that fall short but I like for the gore would be Mother Russia bleeds and Skinny/Franco.
So much potential there though.

Street fighter's combo strings, would always fluctuate between characters back in the day.
Sagat, none existence, Gen on the other hand though.
Ryu & Ken combo strings looked off to me since Alpha. It's like they practicing some basic form of Karate and not assassination fist.
There are games that address this with their that Karate base characters Ryo,Sho,Ein are examples.
In Tekken 7 Akuma's combo strings are limited even though I can string together and attacks and still end it off with a Raging .
This limited strings are even seen in SVC chaos, Dimitri is a beast with combo strings when the shotos are stuck in same boat, Snk handle combo strings better back then with the Real bout series and kof.

As important as attacks are I feel defense should be done manner that is fair and not punishing to the point it's annoying.
Sagat been my main focus right now with him being the King of Muay Thai.
I aim to deliver on that.
That's all I got for now, will drop videos that display what I'm on about.

 

[Kratus]

I been trying to figure out how to go about it with regards to converting Street Fighter into beat em up. I came to the conclusion that the system must cater for stand up, ground attacks and air juggles, throws are always a plus.
I'm removing fireballs and supers from combat, focusing on more devastating combinations that can be chained together by command attacks.
I prefer 2 attack buttons, 1 for punch and 1 for kicks respectively and each attack should flow naturally into the next one.(very important)
While most of the greats have 5 hits in there basics combo, I prefer 4 hits and 4 kicks which allow for a decent amount of button combinations.
SOR4 be limited in this regard but a perfect example of game where the player use all the tools, at least I did.
Games that fall short but I like for the gore would be Mother Russia bleeds and Skinny/Franco.
So much potential there though.

Street fighter's combo strings, would always fluctuate between characters back in the day.
Sagat, none existence, Gen on the other hand though.
Ryu & Ken combo strings looked off to me since Alpha. It's like they practicing some basic form of Karate and not assassination fist.
There are games that address this with their that Karate base characters Ryo,Sho,Ein are examples.
In Tekken 7 Akuma's combo strings are limited even though I can string together and attacks and still end it off with a Raging .
This limited strings are even seen in SVC chaos, Dimitri is a beast with combo strings when the shotos are stuck in same boat, Snk handle combo strings better back then with the Real bout series and kof.

As important as attacks are I feel defense should be done manner that is fair and not punishing to the point it's annoying.
Sagat been my main focus right now with him being the King of Muay Thai.
I aim to deliver on that.
That's all I got for now, will drop videos that display what I'm on about.

Looks promising, buddy. But I have some suggestions that I would use if I started my SF VS KOF today, just my two cents and you can discard if you don't like.

- Unless you are replicating the Dramatic Mode from SF Alpha (which is fun lol, I would like to code something like this one day), since it's a beat 'em up game, keep the basic rules like: strategy, crowd control, resource management. Crazy combos are fun at a certain point but they can be tiring if they are too big. Usually beat 'em ups are more about surviving to a mob than performing MVSC cinematic combos. Believe me, I'm a "combo guy" that still plays MVSC a lot, but along with the SORX development I changed my mind a bit specifically about implementing it in beat 'em ups.

- Be careful with juggles, they are seductive during development but an excessive dosage can ruin the crowd control (enemies will always be flying offering no challenge for players). Keep a very clear limit by using jugglepoints/jugglecost, preventing players from abusing it. Usually allowing a complete combo rush on air after making a rush on the ground (sometimes ending with a special/super) is a good amount.

- Just my opinion, but I like the idea of having projectiles even if they are very limited through a mp bar or item. The same goes for special/supers too, the scarcity can prevent players from abusing it.

- Throws, an important mechanic in beat 'em ups, I strongly suggest to incorporate a good amount. A Zangief without a piledriver would kill the character haha.

- I liked your point about the defense, you can maybe make it more in a "parry" style instead of allowing players to hold all the time (like taping the block button and performing the block animation with a limited duration), or put a small amount of guardpoints to make it end fast in case you choose the "hold" style.

I think it's all for now
PS: I'm a Gen player and will love if you put his 5 hit combo form SFA2 version.

 

[O Ilusionista]

- Be careful with juggles, they are seductive during development but an excessive dosage can ruin the crowd control (enemies will always be flying offering no challenge for players). Keep a very clear limit by using jugglepoints/jugglecost, preventing players from abusing it. Usually allowing a complete combo rush on air after making a rush on the ground (sometimes ending with a special/super) is a good amount.

I can't agree more.

With all due respect to the game developers at OpenBOR - and I have a lot of respect for some of them - this exaggeration in combos is something that keeps me away from some games.

I like to think of it like this: Think about whether a mechanic you want to put in your game "can be used" or "needs to be used" for the game to flow. If the answer is the second option, you may have a design flaw.

Of course, there are basic things, like jumping and defense. But I'm talking about specific cases. An example is having a boss that has an unblockable attack - this can happen, following certain rules. But if all of the boss's attacks are unblockable, that's a design flaw.

Speaking of combos, an example is the game Jitsu Squad. It has long combos, you can do combos easily. But there's a catch: you NEED to do these combos to progress in the game. After a while, it gets boring.

Here's me fighting all the bosses with my son. After a while, we got tired of playing and after I recorded this video, I didn't play this game anymore

I'm removing fireballs and supers from combat, focusing on more devastating combinations that can be chained together by command attacks.

If I may give you some feedback - and I don't want to be offensive here - I think this idea is horrible. Hadouken is directly linked to Ryu: without it, he simply isn't Ryu.
Taking away a character's signature in exchange for long and devastating combos is something that completely takes away my desire to try the game.

As Kratus said, there are several ways to balance the use of projectiles, with an MP bar, changing how you recover MP, juggle points, etc.

While most of the greats have 5 hits in there basics combo, I prefer 4 hits and 4 kicks which allow for a decent amount of button combinations.

During the development of Avengers, I experimented with making Melee characters have 5 hits during a combo. I quickly realized that this was a terrible idea: since my game is very fast-paced, the longer a character stands still in one place, the more vulnerable he is to damage.

In versus games, you only have one enemy to fight, so it makes sense. In a beat 'em up, you'll have 3 or more or the same amount of time.

For example, I removed Quicksilver's ender combo where he would throw multiple punches. Even though he was fast, it made him stand still for a long time - and Quicksilver needs to be moving all the time.

This is why Quicksilver can't grab anyone - he relies on speed and if he grabs an enemy by running close to him, it loses its meaning.

My final tip is: always think about the project as a whole. Sometimes, you have to make concessions that you didn't want to for the greater good.

 

[Miru]

Monomartin’s games are a major example of feeling “wrong” due to the pausing-&-flashing before every breakout special, which are also useless against grapples due to how the enemy grabs are coded in-game. Regardless about how good the rest of the game is, the fundamental flaw of the broken breakout special system just turns me off completely.

 

[DCurrent]

Everyone touched on things I would have said, so not much to add. The simple fact is, there's no optimal design. There's the expression you want, and within that, fundamentals. Same as any other skill. First you learn the foundational basics, which are all the same. Then, you take those basic blocks and make something all your own from them.

On Juggles

The problem with juggle combos and long combos period is they tend to overshadow everything else. It's an obscure example, but look at Toshinden 2 vs 3. 2 gets a bad rap, but I have no idea why. it's a very solid, very fun game with decent balance. You can do combos, but they take skill, and individual moves all have their uses.

Then 3 comes around, and all that goes out the window. EVERYTHING juggles. Everything strings into something else. It's just a free for all to see who can bounce who off the walls and ceiling longer. It's more modern, but it's also no fun at all. No strategy, no impact, no individuality. Everybody does the same thing - juggle. Every move has the same purpose - extend a combo.

Grappling

To me, lack of grappling is a non starter. No offense to much of the work done by others here, but no matter how good a game is an any other aspect, the split second I see a BOR clone towel sling throw, I shut it off, no more questions asked.

For the record, grappling doesn't have to mean "walk and grab". In my own project, there's no conventional grab system. All throws are executed with a command. There's a universal throw command for two throws that everyone has, then most characters have several more, and some of them have chain grabs. This is due to integration with al the other systems. And that's my other point: Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Synergy

Every mechanic you have should be made with careful consideration to how it affects the others. Using my own as example again, you have blocking, multiple means to evade attacks, parrying, and a specific defensive response to most situations. What you do NOT have is a conventional Final Fight break out special. Why? Well, I find those tired and boring, and wanted to use the input for something else (the basic throws, funny enough). but in turn, I need to give players a lot of technical defense options most beat em' ups don't. See how those three seemingly unrelated mechanics coalesce in the design?

DC

 

[Grit]

I really appreciate the feedback, everyone whos opinion matter is here but a visual representation is best suited so you can see what I'm on about.
Will drop it over the weekend then we can go over it but I'll respond to what said here.
I made sure to first built something before speaking on it, just preoccupied right now.

 

[danno]

I have no problem with you taking fireballs away from Ryu, I've never been a big fan of fireballs in beat em ups, energy based attacks in beat em ups should be for stunning opponents or clearing the room, I think that's one of the hard aspects of converting 2D fighters to beat em ups as O ilu said Ryu is known for hadoukens.

I'm not big on big combos in beat em ups either, if one character is combo heavy that's fine coz that's their "thing" but throwing out 20 hit combos and the enemy either gets back up, have another enemy attack you while performing the combo or worse enemies just standing round waiting for you to finish the combo seems silly to me.

For me having a Street Fighter beat em up is gonna be difficult to balance, I would have 2 combat systems, one for beat em ups and another for boss battles being 1 Vs 1 and it switched between to two regularly to keep it interesting.

 

[Grit]

I think that's one of the hard aspects of converting 2D fighters to beat em ups as O ilu said Ryu is known for hadoukens.

So for the record I think Mr. Q achieved this conversion with his trio in Ffp.
I'm not converting the characters, it's more about how I think they should fight based on the martial art practiced.
The story sets the tone for everything, enemies,stages etc.
The Stf2 V animated series did this every well, but the story I'm telling is way more simple and darker.
Characters like Kyo, Terry and Jin look dressed for the streets.
I never like the idea of Ryu walking around in his gi in the movies, made no sense to me for him to only wear that one outfit. To fix this the story sees Ryu taking over by the dark hado before scaring Sagat.
Evil Ryu doesn't eat and mindlessly walk a bloody path to Japan.
Where Akuma is homing in on him, as if they calling out to each other.
The intro that I want to create is basically Sagat's nightmare where he lost to Ryu.
So when you beat Ryu's health to a certain level you lose control of Sagat and the scene will play where Ryu Scar Sagat.
Each character will have their own levels with enemies and bosses unique to them but once game is beaten all stages will be unlocked but I'll switch up the enemies again.
I'll let the video show the combos off.
While fighting one enemy, others will interfere either by air or back attack.
Think of fight if 4 or 5 people were to gang up on you rather then having 10 enemies on screen.

 

[Grit]

For me having a Street Fighter beat em up is gonna be difficult to balance, I would have 2 combat systems, one for beat em ups and another for boss battles being 1 Vs 1 and it switched between to two regularly to keep it interesting.

These were my exact thoughts.
2D system for boss battles but the boss won't fight like in traditional vs games bosses.
Hollow knight is what I'm looking at in this case.
Say, I have 5 characters each having their own 3 stages, all leading to 4 stages that take place on a island.
The game is thought out, just putting it together.
With regards to grappling, it will vary for each character, Sagat will clench and knee you to death, while others got takedowns and ground and pound.
Keeping it simple is key, anyone will be able to pull what I show, no real inputs that require skill.

 

[Grit]

So before I drop the video showcasing the combat system with Sagat. Here is some rough images I put together just to give an idea of whats happening with the plot.
Ryu and Akuma aren't playable at the start.
Ken,Sagat and Gouken are though.
3 stages of Ryu fall from grace,
Akuma training all this time,
Ken and Ryu parting ways.

 

[Grit]

Credit to Matte Ma with regards to Sagat's sprites.
As promised, a visual representation.
I'm only showing what I mentioned previously.
The 3 kick combo I only added to show another approach to juggling but the combo with the run attack is along the lines of what I'm aiming for.

since it's a beat 'em up game, keep the basic rules like: strategy, crowd control, resource management. Crazy combos are fun at a certain point but they can be tiring if they are too big.

Hope you well , I've taken this into account awhile ago that's why I started over, combos are more situational than about numbers.
The few combos I have made cater for the fight.
I played a ton of beat em ups recently in my quest to get this right or my version of right.
I know how I want it to play, difficulty come in putting it together.

Be careful with juggles, they are seductive during development but an excessive dosage can ruin the crowd control (enemies will always be flying offering no challenge for players). Keep a very clear limit by using jugglepoints/jugglecost, preventing players from abusing it

To be honest I don't like juggles at all even though I abuse it in a vs games, I always preferred the enemy get kick out of the sky with an single attack, I'm creating little windows of opportunities that allow this. I'm actually funneling the player into scenarios with limited options like any linear game would.
Have to crafted the experience.
Avengers battlefront does this very well.

- Just my opinion, but I like the idea of having projectiles even if they are very limited through a mp bar or item. The same goes for special/supers too, the scarcity can prevent players from amusing it.

The reason for the removal of it is linked to the story and replay value, first round is a brawl, 2nd playthrough will see characters have access to elemental specials and supers which change how the game is played since enemies have access to then aswell.
In the anime stf2 v if Ken or Ryu don't figure out how to release their power they die, main villain's goal is to unlock hado on a global scale.
I'm thinking 7 stages, 3 linked to the character back story and 4 linked to the main plot.

If I may give you some feedback - and I don't want to be offensive here - I think this idea is horrible. Hadouken is directly linked to Ryu: without it, he simply isn't Ryu.

O llusionista, your work speaks for itself in Mugen, I can't thank you enough for FightersFactory and OpenBOR. I don't take offense to the feedback. Context is everything for me, even though he is Ryu, there must be a reason as to why he can even do the Hadouken. To top it off he won't be playable at first.
The story is serviceable.
I'm trying to show them in a different light, love the characters but not their basic style of fighting, I want to give them a different feel.
As seen with Sagat.
I had Dan recover quickly so I can test things.

 

[danno]

Looks really good @Grit are you gonna have a throw/slam system? I was actually thinking controversially enough it might be better not too during the beat em up sections but just for 2D boss battles.

 

[Grit]

Are you gonna have a throw/slam system? I was actually thinking controversially enough it might be better not too during the beat em up sections but just for 2D boss battles.

Yes, The fighting style will determine how the slam system work for each character, Sagat - Muay thai clinch.
World heroes laid the ground work for me to work with but I want to try it from the ground up.
Always a fan of Geese,Clark,Goro and Blue Mary
Kof did the throw game justice but I think I might add throw escape, UDD had certain enemies that can't be grabbed for too long. Think I'll make so the boss must take X amount of damage before being grabbed and even then they could escape.
Not every boss will fight on the 2D level.
There are games where bosses put up a decent fight, like the first boss on Cadillacs and dinosaurs.
Balrog would make for a decent first boss with his charging attacks but I settled on Bison since I want to wrap his story up in the first 3 stages.

Looks really good

Thanks man, just trying to align everything,
Sound effects,characters,stages, storyboards, misc etc.
I aim to rival the quality CAP put out back in the day, small task for Openbor, huge for me.

 

[Grit]

Thought I add this about why I would remove fireballs etc.
All the great anime did this thing where things would start off normal before descending into madness, DBZ and Berserk come to mind. I want the focus to first be on fighting before the fireworks.
If I get make a VS game on Mugen, I will remove the fireballs all together to make a tornament where style vs style like the UFC of old...Snk sprites will work since they cover grappling in this regard.
Feedback is always welcomed, but I would prefer people see a game in action before saying a idea is good or bad cause people can be proved wrong.

 

[Grit]

Here are some of the enemies I intend to add. Some context, Adon,Bruce and Joe are after Sagat, so they mini bosses for him only.
They did the Character dirty in my opinion.

Saw a fan made animation of Guile vs Winter soldier.Epic stuff
So I figure why not do that with Nash but there is no happy ending.
Enemies that appear across stages will be from Shadowlaw, mainly women since Bison is about that. Stf 2V's Bison really lived up to the hype better than the movie, dialog was on point.
Akuma look more menacing here with his cloths torn, just my take.
Since this take place after STF, I figure add Mr. Karate to accompany Geese.
Joe from STF will be my first enemy character. The type to rush the player down.
I figure fan made edits is best suited for the scope I'm aiming for.

 

[Grit]

Came up with combo for attack3 and replaced the kick that follow up the jab.

 

[SEEGET]

Looks promising, buddy. But I have some suggestions that I would use if I started my SF VS KOF today, just my two cents and you can discard if you don't like.

- Unless you are replicating the Dramatic Mode from SF Alpha (which is fun lol, I would like to code something like this one day), since it's a beat 'em up game, keep the basic rules like: strategy, crowd control, resource management. Crazy combos are fun at a certain point but they can be tiring if they are too big. Usually beat 'em ups are more about surviving to a mob than performing MVSC cinematic combos. Believe me, I'm a "combo guy" that still plays MVSC a lot, but along with the SORX development I changed my mind a bit specifically about implementing it in beat 'em ups.

- Be careful with juggles, they are seductive during development but an excessive dosage can ruin the crowd control (enemies will always be flying offering no challenge for players). Keep a very clear limit by using jugglepoints/jugglecost, preventing players from abusing it. Usually allowing a complete combo rush on air after making a rush on the ground (sometimes ending with a special/super) is a good amount.

- Just my opinion, but I like the idea of having projectiles even if they are very limited through a mp bar or item. The same goes for special/supers too, the scarcity can prevent players from abusing it.

- Throws, an important mechanic in beat 'em ups, I strongly suggest to incorporate a good amount. A Zangief without a piledriver would kill the character haha.

- I liked your point about the defense, you can maybe make it more in a "parry" style instead of allowing players to hold all the time (like taping the block button and performing the block animation with a limited duration), or put a small amount of guardpoints to make it end fast in case you choose the "hold" style.

I think it's all for now
PS: I'm a Gen player and will love if you put his 5 hit combo form SFA2 version

how do i add guard point?

 

[Kratus]

how do i add guard point?

Just declare the guardpoints command with a defined amount at the character header, like this.

name Axel_
type player
health 100
jugglepoints 60
guardpoints 20

 

[SEEGET]

Just declare the guardpoints command with a defined amount at the character header, like this.

name Axel_
type player
health 100
jugglepoints 60
guardpoints 20

thanks a lot